Matt Farah's latest video, and why I will never understand fast FWD cars. 

"Noah - Now with more boost." (antriebverliebt) 01/11/2016 at 15:36 • Filed to: None

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This is the most entertaining FWD automobile I’ve ever driven. It’s an Alfa-Romeo 164 QV powered by the legendary 3.0 Busso V6. It sounded amazing and looked completely out of place in the pastoral college town I drove it through. Alfas of this vintage are extremely rare in the US, so needless to say, I was thrilled to find myself behind the wheel of this rare beast. I’m not an auto journalist, so 232 horsepower and 200 lb/ft of torque in a 3200 LB car felt pretty quick to me.

If you stepped on the gas in second gear, the car spun its tires and lurched to the left when it regained traction. I found this behavior amusing, but also slightly terrifying. Involuntary lane changes are dangerous. As far as I’m concerned, this level of unpredictability is unacceptable in a high performance automobile. I imagine that my experience in my friend’s Alfa isn’t too far removed from piloting an old muscle car on skinny bias ply tires. You aren’t enjoying yourself because it’s an “ultimate driving machine.” It’s fun because the poor driving dynamics keep you on your toes.

The same can be said for the tuned 9000 CSE I drove. It was a hoot because it was scary. This car suffered from classic 90s turbo lag AND gnarly torque steer. 250 ft/lbs isn’t much by today’s standards, but when it comes on all at once at the top of the rev range, you’d better hold on for dear life. I’d love to own a 2.3T 9000 at some point in time. Not because it’s a good-looking handling machine. I like it because it’s the quirky antithesis of everything I want out of a high performance car.

Now, on to Matt Farah’s latest video. He’s one of my favorite automotive journalists and this is not a critique of his content. I’m criticizing the mentality behind this GTI. Before you ask: Yes, I have driven a modern GTI before. It was an MK7. The torque steer was negligible and the handling was great. That said, it still had a little trouble putting power down in first and second gear. When the load shifted to the rear of the car during intense acceleration, the traction control kicked in and cut power as the the front wheels clawed away at the pavement. It was quick, but you could still feel (and hear) the econobox DNA. You can’t get away from the fact that it’s a Golf with a small turbocharged I4. It’s a compromise based on the same car your grandmother uses to drive her miniature poodle to the groomer.

A new GTI starts at 25k. Let’s call that $30,000 with a few options and all of the modifications on display in this video. Thirty grand is a lot of money. 400 horsepower is a lot of grunt. But there’s no LSD, and it’s front wheel drive. I’ll never understand the mentality behind cars like this. If you have that much money to play with, and you want to drive a fun car, what prevents you from buying a sports car? Or a fast sedan? Why would you rather have a glorified economy car? That concept boggles the mind. Yet for some reason, this idea appeals to many people. They buy a new Fiesta ST, or a Civic Si, and then immediately void the warranty via modifying it within an inch of it’s life. They say goodbye to all of the things that made their car an attractive proposition in the first place. It isn’t practical anymore because it drinks gas like a boat. It isn’t discrete anymore because it’s loud. Finally, it drives like an old turbocharged Saab because your peaky 400 horsepower Mazdaspeed 3 is unmanageable unless you’re on the highway.

Ultimately, what other people do with their money is none of my business. But that doesn’t change how unimpressed I am by front wheel drive “performance cars.” I know what driving a Civic is like. I don’t care if the badge says “Si” and you’ve slapped a massive turbo on it. I see and hear the same car my elderly parents use to get their groceries. If it had 300-400 horsepower, it would be outrageously scary. Why anyone would go out of their way to create something of that nature is beyond me. I think people who do that just don’t care. They only want to go fast in a straight line. Or maybe they don’t know what “CPO” stands for. And they’re either afraid of used cars, or don’t know enough about them to make a responsible decision. Finally, it’s also possible that they’re afraid of rear wheel drive.

This is an LT-1 powered C4 Corvette, which you could buy from 1992 - 1996. The styling is polarizing. Some people, myself included, love the long, low, and undeniably 80s shape. Hate it or love it though, you can’t deny the fact that it’s a fun car. With 300 horsepower and 330 lb/ft of torque on tap, you can be sure that it’s quick. It has a big V8, so it sounds mean. The handling may be sloppy, but you can still steer it with your right foot.

This is the car that ruined my friend’s GTI for him. He was a great guy, but he was also a bit of a spoiled brat. His parents bought him the VW as a high school graduation gift. It was his pride and joy. Yet when his coworker showed up one day in a $6000 C4, my friend was flabbergasted. He was jealous of the sound. The speed. The aesthetic punch. The reliability too, and the room in the engine bay for wrenching. He lost all interest in modifying his GTI. No exhaust could match the LT-1's rumble. He couldn’t introduce a understeer-eliminating slip to the rear end without the handbrake. Even if he did tune that 2.0T up to 300 horsepower, it would have major traction issues. And that’s the idea behind my exasperation with expensive, high-horsepower FWD cars. I roll my eyes because modifying a hot hatch to make 300+ horsepower is senseless. It’s like putting makeup on a pig.

Just take the plunge into the used market and buy a car that was designed from the ground up to be a sporty car. Try a fast German sedan. Or a Japanese coupe. Anything. And if you absolutely have to go into debt for a hotted-up Focus because you’re a warranty slave, keep it practical. While you’re trying to impress me with “stage three this” and “ECU flash that” I’m picturing a windy road, a low-mileage Z4 3.osi, and the $10,000 I’d save.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 15:43

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250hp is probably just about the limit for FWD cars before they just start being stupid.

RallyWrench > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 15:45

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Interesting connection: The 164 and 9000 share a platform.

Cash Rewards > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 15:46

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Show me a quick, sporty, $25k new car with warranty, with the utility of a hatchback, with 4 doors, and is RWD.

Dusty Ventures > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 15:47

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As far as I’m concerned, this level of unpredictability is unacceptable in a high performance automobile.

Better not drive an 80's 911 Turbo then

Leon711 > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 15:54

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Skills. Skills are what make you able to drive a fwd car fast. Understeer shouldn’t be a problem if the technique is correct, grip the wheel and hold on for dear life. There is also an inherent safety to the handling, if you can manage to put it backwards into a tree I applaud you, but typically they are safe. If you don’t get that, that’s fine.

Make no mistake RWD is far more dangerous.

You can’t claim they aren’t fast either. The Renault Megane rs275 trophy R lapped the ring in 7.54 which is quicker than a c5 z06, a Ferrari 430, a 997 911 turbo, an Audi RS4 and the current M5. All of those have far more power.

Big Bubba Ray > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 15:55

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So much FWD hate round these parts today.

Hey guys, some car buyers or enthusiasts may want or need something different than you. It doesn’t mean that they’re wrong. Get over it.

gin-san - shitpost specialist > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 15:55

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For the record: I’m fine with FWD. However, when it comes to this level of modding it just becomes a pissing contest about what mods are done and what you get on the dyno. Pointless. I think about that 1000hp Honda Odyssey - what’s the point other than for the bragging rights and to do FWD burnouts?

I find that what manufacturers put out in terms of fast FWD cars is pretty much the limit in terms of what is reasonably achievable for what they need to research and develop relative to how many they can sell. I think they pretty much hit the sweet spot for hot FWD cars since you need a balance of power and grip.

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > RallyWrench 01/11/2016 at 15:56

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The 164 is a vastly superior driver’s vehicle in stock guise.

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > Dusty Ventures 01/11/2016 at 15:56

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At least the 80s 911s are predictable in so far as they are ALWAYS trying to kill you. Count on it to do whatever makes you most uncomfortable.

Leon711 > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 01/11/2016 at 15:56

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I dunno. Seat and Renault seem to make potent FWD with 280 and 275 horsepower respectively.

Aaron M - MasoFiST > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 15:57

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Of course, there’s the middle ground. Both the Fiesta ST and the GTI can have their power increased by 20-30% for less than a grand. And the GTI can be purchased with an LSD.

Autohaus Derp > Leon711 01/11/2016 at 15:58

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Sense!

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Leon711 01/11/2016 at 16:00

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I wouldn’t know I’m on the wrong continent.

Cash Rewards > Leon711 01/11/2016 at 16:01

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Go get an 05 cooper s, turn off traction and stability control, over cook a corner and lift off the throttle abruptly. The back end will find a tree pretty quick. Or, so I’ve been told...

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 16:01

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I can tell you first hand, having driven a 164-S for over 300K miles that when pushed hard in the twisties it is an absolute ball. lift-off-oversteer like a Fiesta ST, but with enough momentum to sustain extended drifts. Extremely well balanced when trasitioning from throttle to brake and back again. There is absolutely NOTHING poor about the driving dynamics of a 164-S with appropriate tires on it. Even my buddy who beleives the only cars worth owning are Porche 911s, E34 M3s and drag-ready Mustangs (he’s an odd duck, that man), conceded that the 164 is a damn fine car to drive.

Leon711 > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 01/11/2016 at 16:02

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Give it 25 years.

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > Leon711 01/11/2016 at 16:03

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I know first hand, that in SKILLED hands the 164-S as described as “unpredictable” above is one of the fastest sedans I have ever had the pleasure of storming a canyon road in. Yes, I have driven M3s.

Leon711 > Cash Rewards 01/11/2016 at 16:04

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Hey I’m not saying that you are invincible in FWD, but you have to be giving it some to do it, which is too much for the road. Ask me how I know.

RallyWrench > JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t 01/11/2016 at 16:05

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Yes it is, which is why it’s hard to believe they share some bones.

Cash Rewards > Leon711 01/11/2016 at 16:06

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“To much for the road”

That describes the situation pretty accurately!

Takuro Spirit > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 16:06

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Having driven FWD, AWD, and RWD in equal amounts, I would rather be out of control in an AWD car versus the others.

It’s no fun understeering under power, or axle hopping as one front wheel spins. Oversteer can be fun to catch but aiming the front wheels and goosing it.

It’s fun to power oversteer, and sometimes understeer can be solved with a stab at the go-pedal.

Both can be done with AWD, and you have the advantage of faster launches, with less wheelspin.

Leon711 > JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t 01/11/2016 at 16:06

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There’s an oft quoted phrase in car magazines over here that on a tight twisting road, a hot hatch will keep up with anything.

Justin Hughes > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 16:08

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The last time I was car shopping it came down to a choice between a BRZ and a Fiesta ST. After verifying that the BRZ could fill what very few practical needs I have (which is why I didn’t get a Miata, and there were no WRXs available during the 2014-2015 model changeover), I went with the car designed to be a sports car from the ground, rather than the very good Fiesta ST with econobubble roots. If I needed the FiST’s extra practicality, I would’ve got it, and enjoyed it, I’m sure. But I prefer RWD, or AWD in low traction situations.

Leon711 > Cash Rewards 01/11/2016 at 16:09

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Desu-San-Desu > Cash Rewards 01/11/2016 at 16:10

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R53 Coopers only had DCS, which was traction control and stability control. Luckily, it turns all the way off with the flick of a switch.

Also, the short wheelbase does mean mine (‘06 R53) is decently tail-happy, but it’s not as easy as you say. Overcook a corner and lift off the corner abruptly and you’ll feel the tail loosen a tad but it won’t really do more than dig the front in and give friendly little wag from the rear. To really get it tail-happy in stock form you either need to give it some flick or apply some sudden braking mid-corner.

Unless you’re running a beefy rear sway bar. Then it’s a whole different ballgame.

Desu-San-Desu > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 16:11

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So....what you’re saying is that you’re....an elitist. Got it.

Desu-San-Desu > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 01/11/2016 at 16:12

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LSD helps.

Grindintosecond > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 16:13

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Of any modified 400hp fwd car, id want that in a mazda3, the most capable platform to do that in. Now, big power useless in a fwd car? Watch some fwd super 2000 rally cars or some classic btcc touring car racing and theres the deal. Making your car like the race cars, just like any other drive system fanboy.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Big Bubba Ray 01/11/2016 at 16:15

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Or hey, maybe buyers like usable power. I’d almost be willing to bet, you’d be able to much more safely be able to ring out an FoST or GTI compared to a Mustang GT or Camaro SS on a daily basis.

Aaron M - MasoFiST > gin-san - shitpost specialist 01/11/2016 at 16:16

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Modding in many circles is a pissing contest regardless of the driveline.

I used to own a 300whp WRX. Let me tell you something about 300whp (about 380 at the crank in an AWD car): it is a lot of power in a street car, especially a relatively light one, and something that you use very rarely unless you live somewhere with a lot of long, straight roads and not a lot of police officers. In the 3200lb WRX, it was a bit of a handful, especially when you added in a smidge of turbo lag.

I got to this power level after blowing my stock turbo and replacing it with a Blouch 16G. Go and type “16G” into the search bar on NASIOC. All you see are thread after thread after thread of people saying that it’s a “pussy turbo”, and that “real drivers go 18G or bigger”. Why? Pissing contest. The fact that a 16G puts you at the edge of usability, and already has enough power to blow the stock clutch out as well as max out your fuel system? Irrelevant. It’s a pussy turbo.

With-a-G is back to not having anything written after his username > Dusty Ventures 01/11/2016 at 16:17

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The Porsche’s drivetrain only tries to kill you symmetrically, at least. If you turn the wheel, it’s your own damn fault.

CalzoneGolem > Desu-San-Desu 01/11/2016 at 16:18

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It sure does.

Cash Rewards > Desu-San-Desu 01/11/2016 at 16:19

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If you over inflate the fronts from 38psi to 42ish, you could get a nice, controlled pirouette. That set up, usually on falken azenis, was the way to go for autocross. The R53 was the car to have for autocross for a while, especially as the stock class let you modify the exhaust from the cat back, and the stock exhaust was so poorly done on those cars you could actually free up some meaningful power. And I believe you had to get the sports package option for DCS, otherwise it was just traction control (no stability component), otherwise yeah, just flip that one switch and nannies are gone!.

Little Black Coupe Turned Silver > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 01/11/2016 at 16:19

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Nah. I’m sitting at 250 to the wheels right now, it needs more.

Desu-San-Desu > CalzoneGolem 01/11/2016 at 16:19

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I know when my Mini is paid off, I’d like to install an LSD. Until then, a rear sway bar and a little more technique with throttle application will do fine.

Desu-San-Desu > Cash Rewards 01/11/2016 at 16:20

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I keep my fronts around 34psi when cold. I couldn’t imagine 42 psi. O.O

gin-san - shitpost specialist > Aaron M - MasoFiST 01/11/2016 at 16:21

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Makes sense, it’s really the modding mentality; I was focused on FWD just because of the original post but you’re right, it’s just part of modding culture: getting the most power out of whatever it is you have.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Desu-San-Desu 01/11/2016 at 16:21

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That it does, brah. That it does.

CalzoneGolem > Desu-San-Desu 01/11/2016 at 16:22

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Jay Lauer > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 16:24

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Because it’s fun.

Everything’s fun in it’s own way.

Xyl0c41n3 > Dusty Ventures 01/11/2016 at 16:25

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Would now be a good time to post some Fiesta sedans? :P

punkgoose17 > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 16:26

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I agree with you. I once heard 200 bhp and 200 lb-ft is the maximum for what a FWD setup can handle / should have, and I believe it.

Dusty Ventures > Xyl0c41n3 01/11/2016 at 16:28

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If by sedans you mean hatchbacks

Textured Soy Protein > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 16:29

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The first car I ever bought was a ’92 Acura Integra GSR, in 2001. It was basically like driving a typical economy hatchback that happened to have a “premium” badge on it and such luxury features as power windows and a sunroof to go with its cloth seats and no armrest.

It was fwd, but torque steer was never really an issue, through the magic of equal-length half shafts and double-wishbone front suspension. It had a typical gutless-at-low-RPM small-displacement Honda VTEC motor, and putzing around town driving at normal revs it felt like a normal econobox. It did not have a V8 burble or power-on oversteer.

But you know what? That car was still fun as hell. It had the typically great Honda steering and shifter, the brakes worked fine, the handling was very easy to drive like an idiot on twisty roads with not too much actual skill and not spinning out, and yes, it was fun to unleash the VTEC fury.

It was a good car. It was fun. I liked it.

A brand new hot hatch, in and of itself, is not a bad idea at all. It ticks way more practicality boxes than a used, expensive to buy/fuel/fix rwd sedan.

Buying any brand new car and voiding the warranty with a bunch of mods carries the same risks/rewards, whatever the driven wheels might be.

I’ve owned almost every kind of vehicle from a Miata to a Hemi Grand Cherokee. They all have their pluses and minuses. Rwd + V8 is not the be-all, end-all for cars, and frankly, C4 Corvettes are piles of shit.

djmt1 > punkgoose17 01/11/2016 at 16:31

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That wasn’t even true 20 years ago let alone today. Here have some 275HP+ FWD sub 8 mins @ the ring for your time

DrJohannVegas > Big Bubba Ray 01/11/2016 at 16:32

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We have always been at war with FWD.

BigBlock440 > Cash Rewards 01/11/2016 at 16:36

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300 hp V6, RWD, available manual, etc.

Oh, you said 4 doors.

Svend > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 16:40

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They are poor driving dynamics, just driving dynamics. You shouldn’t ‘floor’ the accelerator on any car FWD/AWD/RWD/4X4 unless you’ve learned the driving dynamics of the car.

Otherwise you end up like a lot of these young drivers with really powerful cars wrapped around trees, powerlines, etc...

Cash Rewards > BigBlock440 01/11/2016 at 16:40

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Fair examples, but a different sort of “sporty” than I prefer or intended. Even though RWD, with the size and weight they’re probably not going to do as well at a track day or autocross, compared to a GTI or focus/fiesta ST. If you’re looking for burnouts and drag strips though, this is probably your answer.

Ej8gUy > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 16:40

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I think you were vastly under pricing the GTI on display in Matt’s video. All of the mods that Revo did puts this VW at WAY over 30K. I would venture to bet closer to 45K if you had Revo do all the work.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 16:43

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I tend to agree with the new vs. used sentiment, and FWD cars generally aren’t my cup of tea. I feel pretty much the way tavarish does when it comes to used cars, but then again I’m fair with a wrench. And there are definitely at least a handful of FWD cars I would love to own. No need to hate.

Milky > Leon711 01/11/2016 at 16:43

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LOL WUT?

You can’t claim they aren’t fast either. The Renault Megane rs275 trophy R lapped the ring in 7.54 which is quicker than a c5 z06, a Ferrari 430, a 997 911 turbo, an Audi RS4 and the current M5. All of those have far more power.

A stripped out car with a roll cage, cup tires and ohlins dampers is faster than fat and/or old cars? Ya dont say.

BeaterGT > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 16:44

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I love any article that gives a shout out to the LT1 and/or C4!

Saracen > BigBlock440 01/11/2016 at 16:46

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Those are not sporty. Those are boats.

Leon711 > Milky 01/11/2016 at 16:50

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Renault and seat will sell them to you like that. If I said quicker than a k series Caterham r500, would that appease you?

MPA > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 16:56

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I used to be very anti-FWD.

There’s no way they could be fun.

I had a MkIV GTi, and while it handled good, it didn’t blow me away.

Last August I had a ‘09 Accent as a DD, and a ‘06 C6. I knew I had to downgrade due to getting married, and my wife needing a car.

I started watching all of the Fiesta ST videos after reading rave review after rave review. All the videos said the same as the articles. It is a fantastic car, even if it’s FWD.

And yes, it’ll never be what my C6 was, but it’s not a Corvette. It’s not trying to be one.

It’s a blast to drive - and I do enjoy it more than the vette.

Milky > Leon711 01/11/2016 at 17:02

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I guess do you boo, I’m just gonna leave this here.

Xyl0c41n3 > Dusty Ventures 01/11/2016 at 17:09

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Dude... *sigh*

http://gaborvajda.kinja.com/your-girlfrien…

Come on.

ETA: A quote: “One minute they can make us curse and throw wrenches at oil cans and the next minute we will be in awe before their incomparable attractiveness - as a person, a human being and an object of desire .” (Emphasis mine)

Hot Takes Salesman > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 17:18

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Just take the plunge into the used market and buy a car that was designed from the ground up to be a sporty car.

Tavarish approves.

noselunting > djmt1 01/11/2016 at 17:19

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I’m not sure I would get home, park, get out of the car and turn around to gaze lovingly at any of those cars.

noselunting > Jay Lauer 01/11/2016 at 17:22

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Completely agree with you on this one. I’ve had just as much fun in a 1993 1.0 Fiat Panda Fizz as I’ve had in my Elise. Each car is fun in it’s own way and set of circumstances.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > Saracen 01/11/2016 at 17:39

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“Those are not sporty. Those are boaty.”

FTFY

Jay Lauer > noselunting 01/11/2016 at 17:42

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Yup, someone here gets it. I think it just takes a lot of exposure. Or perhaps the ability to own a good car to know that it’s not the answer to the most fun question. My Corvette was great, but so was my Mazda3.

The world is so big to pidgeon-hole one self in one powertrain layout, one brand, one anything.

Saracen > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 01/11/2016 at 17:56

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Whatever.

Amoore100 > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 18:01

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FWD is if you want practicality with a bit of performance. RWD is if you want performance with a bit of practicality. In theory AWD should be both, but sometimes it turns out to be neither.

TwinCharged - Is Now UK Opponaut > Desu-San-Desu 01/11/2016 at 18:04

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Really? Because my R53 only has ASC...

TwinCharged - Is Now UK Opponaut > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 01/11/2016 at 18:10

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Say hello to 320hp.

Say another hello to 422hp.

Sweet Jesus the Italians are crazy.

CCC (formerly CyclistCarCoexist) > Xyl0c41n3 01/11/2016 at 18:20

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Fiesta sedans are very curious. Ford is not exactly the greatest people in advertising them....but I wish they made a ST version...but I’d have a hard time imagining the rear end...But a WRX hatch always needs a WRX Sedan sibling. I wish ford gave more attention to the sedan. It's really underrated...

Xyl0c41n3 > CCC (formerly CyclistCarCoexist) 01/11/2016 at 18:27

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I drive a Fiesta sedan. An ST version WOULD be cool. I think you’d have to drop them a little, because, for their tiny size, they’re kinda tall and narrow. I mean, the sedan does come with a manual option, so you could theoretically get that, put in some coilovers, do a couple other mods and have a car that’s a bit more fun than its slushbox siblings.

Anyway, here’s my baby, which is an auto:

Spoon II > Cash Rewards 01/11/2016 at 18:33

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It’s pretty easy to correct for that. I think it’s called throttle-off oversteer. It’s a predictable result of spirited driving. Again, it comes back to just having the required skills.

Cash Rewards > Spoon II 01/11/2016 at 19:46

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That’s right. It’s actually desirable on track or for autocross. If you come in too fast and dont get enough turn in, just lift and let the car correct for you, and get back on the throttle when youre pointed in the right direction. It’s just a little surprising the first time it happens, especially with the attitude that you see here being so common (“fwd cars suck and just understeer”)

Sweet Trav > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 19:49

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You know what car smokes a C4 in every way? My mostly FWD SHO. Hell I’ve turned in faster times than C6's around the autocross course.

BigBlock440 > Saracen 01/11/2016 at 20:10

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Well, if we’re considering a Focus or Golf sporty, the bar’s set pretty low.

Saracen > BigBlock440 01/11/2016 at 20:34

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The GTI and Focus ST are a hell of a slot sportier than those two gas-powered couches.

KirkyV > Leon711 01/11/2016 at 21:03

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Don’t forget about Ford’s old 350HP insanity-machine.

Flavien Vidal > Leon711 01/11/2016 at 21:04

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All of those were driven on street tires. The Megane RS275, was basically converted into a racecar to achieve this kind of lap time, and yes, that does include slick tires.

Flavien Vidal > djmt1 01/11/2016 at 21:07

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All of those have achieved these laptimes on semi-slick to slick tires and extended modifications. Especially the Civic which was pretty much stripped out and with a roll cage that does marvels to stiffening the chassis.

Don’t misunderstand me there. I would love to own any of those. But they are not really sub-8min cars unless you modify them accordingly. Do the same mods to a C5 Z06, and be ready to see it reach VERY low times around the ring :)

Little Black Coupe Turned Silver > Flavien Vidal 01/11/2016 at 21:10

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I know that the Seat Leon whatever one was availabile from the factory in the same version that set the Ring time. I still think it's cheating, but you buy and drive it in insane mode.

djmt1 > Flavien Vidal 01/11/2016 at 21:15

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The Civic is a bit fishy with the whole “development car nonsense” but the Megane and Seat have been done independently. Curiously Bridge to Gantry did a 7:45 in his Seat. Quite a bit faster than Seat themselves but then again driving around the ring all day is what he does.

Flavien Vidal > djmt1 01/11/2016 at 21:16

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He did 7.45 in a BTG run, not a full ring lap. Manufacturers measure actual full laps.

Noah - Now with more boost. > RallyWrench 01/11/2016 at 22:56

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Cool! I had no idea.

Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 22:56

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Look, I’ve got a Mk7 GTI. It has the Performance Package which gives it a front LSD. This really, really, really helps. If the car that Farah was driving had the PP and the traction control off (have to get it done with vcds coding, but still possible. My car has it done), it would have acted much more predictable. Plus it would have been faster. I do understand FWD isn’t exactly the /perfect/ choice for performance, but it can be done, and it can be fun. You just gotta treat it like a totally different animal.

Noah - Now with more boost. > Ej8gUy 01/11/2016 at 23:04

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Lol yeah I underpriced it to minimize the points people could twist to trash me with. 45k is a reasonable guess. And that’s used E90 M3 money!

Desu-San-Desu > TwinCharged - Is Now UK Opponaut 01/11/2016 at 23:11

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Mine has the sport package and the convenience package, so maybe that’s why?

And sorry, I’ve never encountered an R53 with ASC before, so maybe that’s why I thought they all had DSC or nothing.

promoted by the color red > Noah - Now with more boost. 01/11/2016 at 23:13

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Stiff rear sway bar ftw

Bytemite > BigBlock440 01/11/2016 at 23:14

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I usually want to pick RWD over fail-wheel drive whenever possible but he is right. The massive bloat makes for terrible driving dynamics, no matter what wheels are driven. The responsive, light, but FWD GTi and ST are more fun than a heavy, long wheelbase RWD trucksized car.

Now if you suggested some 4 door hatchback FRS...then there would be no contest. But we don’t have that.

Leon711 > Flavien Vidal 01/12/2016 at 02:07

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No, The Leon and Megane both ran Michelin Pilot Sport Cup2 tires which whilst the same as what you will find on a Porsche 918, they are street legal and available from the factory. The Civic Type R on the other hand was caged, with slicks which is why I did not mention it. proof that the Type R was radically modified for the Ring comes from every group test with the Leon, Megane and Civic where the Civic comes stone dead last because the best tyres available are Bridgestone sport tyres rather than ultra grippy trackday tyres.

Leon711 > punkgoose17 01/12/2016 at 02:12

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a Saab engineer said 175hp back in the 80's, I have 200hp and FWD and it can take more power. do you honestly think that suspension and driveline design doesn’t progress over time? I’m not saying FWD is the be all and end all, but it’s far better than people like you give it credit for.

punkgoose17 > Leon711 01/12/2016 at 11:59

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Yes cars improve but if you want to put 250 hp down to the ground AWD or RWD is a better way of doing it.

Leon711 > punkgoose17 01/12/2016 at 12:33

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If people wanted the best solution to everything the everyone would still drive wagons and not CUVs.